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Can Jesus be Just a Guy? The Religion in Politics

by: Grace Kelly

Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 14:40:23 PM CDT


OK, get over the shock of actually talking about religion. Religion has entered politics,  that is a done deal. In many ways, religion and politics both talk about building community. Let go of the "hands-off religion" rule, to look at how similar our religious differences is to our political differences (or don't read the article). While the religious world is far bigger, this discussion will just focus on the recent movie suggestions that Jesus might be just a guy.

One of the strongest differences between progressives and conservations is the reaction to the suggestion of recent movies the Jesus might be just a guy, outstanding by his life and by his teachings. Another variation is that Jesus is the son of God, in the same sense that all humans are children of God.

For progressives, the idea if Jesus might just a guy was interesting and not at all challenging to faith. In fact if Jesus - as an ordinary guy - could do such great things, then it meant that all of us could do more in what we do. It meant the teachings and life examples of Jesus were even more to be studied, emulated and revered.

So I was quite surprised to find out how upsetting the very idea of "Jesus might be just a guy" was to conservatives.  The reaction is intense anger and denial. Indeed the idea can not even be discussed. What is so threatening about this idea?

I think that "power" is the essence of the conservative's beliefs. So the important essence of believing in Jesus requires the deity power, not how Jesus lived or what Jesus taught. Indeed as I asked questions at "Jesus" stands in conservative gatherings, they did not engage in discussions of key passages of the bible and in some cases, did not even recognize them. "Jesus" was a marketing tool, where one simply invoked the name and was saved. The essence of this religion seems to be "what the religion can do for me!" It is not a do-it-yourself kind of religion.

Grace Kelly :: Can Jesus be Just a Guy? The Religion in Politics
Another difference seems to where religion affirms the importance of all people or where religion affirms the importance of a chosen few. In the progressive tradition, one is supposed to seek out the person who is different from you, to show compassion and understanding. Indeed I have personally been admonished to not demonize the other. (OK, I am not very good at that.) In contrast, the conservative religions seem to seek out a group to make the embodiment of evil - gays, Muslims, Chinese or the poor. The concept is that prosperity and wealth is given to the deserving, which is my group. Anyone who is suffering must have deserved it. The tortured logic of deserving involves allowing anything in the community that might be morally condemned. "Condemned", "jails" and "execution" are all favored words that support and justify the superiority of the group that one is in. It is the opposite of equality.

I believe one of the reasons for the need for superiority is fear that there is not enough for everyone. This is the opposite of the loaves and fishes Bible story where Jesus fed everyone.

So what I am seeing is that religion is a projection of what people already believe or want to believe. Even in the same religious traditions, there is enough variation that a person can still choose a religious variation that better fits what each individual wants. The religion then becomes the bedrock that shakes off all evidence to contrary. Indeed we have seen this "faith" before "facts" approach in rejecting climate change, in rejecting that education prevents more abortions than making abortion illegal,  and in rejecting that President Bush lied us into war. The principle of "faith before facts" is the basis of drinking poison kool-aid references.

Go one step further, let's assume that need for a superior power goes to fear, fear of loss of jobs and security in this world. Indeed my discussions with conservatives indicate that would love to have a government that provided universal health care without the insurance administrative overhead. What they are missing is the faith that government can be good - that there are and can be good leaders. What this means is that we are not using the persuasions that will work. It means that we need to tell good stories of when government has worked well.

I noticed that Republicans who are Republicans because their families always were Republicans usually talk very fondly of President Franklin Roosevelt. If we crafted a persuasion the party doing what Roosevelt advocated, is the Democratic Party. Basically the need for security and the need for a superior power can be translated into building a strong government community power.

Indeed if we are looking at what the religious differences are telling us, conservatives are not do-it-yourselfers, they want to hire the expert. They want a leader who they can simply trust. And go back again to the nature of the fear that all politicians are corrupt. Notice how moderation feeds into the concept of corruption.  By choosing the political strategy of trying to be all things to all people, John Kerry lost the moral high ground of standing for anything. In contrast, when John Kerry first spoke out on the show,  60 Minutes, everyone wanted to vote for him. Even now there are Democrats who bending to the will of health insurance companies. People want a politician who will stand up to insurance companies and all corporations. People have lost faith in the ability of Democracy to represent us.

So this means that if Democrats spoke more in charismatic moral tones like "health care is right of everyone", "a health care dollar spent on anything but health care is a waste" and "health insurance companies sell us lies about health care in other countries". If we spoke smack-between-the-eyes truths on even just one issue, then suddenly the people who just desperately want a great leader would come to us.

And if religion comes to politics, take it directly on. For example, Jesus is on the side of universal health care. After all, Jesus healed the sick and the poor for free! If the teachings of Jesus matter, then this supports government provided universal health care with no greedy profit involved:


One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).

And if the "power" of Jesus is all that matters, then the fact that Jesus ordered it should matter.

I am not good enough in other religions to quote other sacred texts, however it is a universal tenet of religion to take care of one another and to build good communities. All religion is on the side of single payer health care and against allowing the greed of the cherry-picking health insurance industry.

And I believe that if we design our persuasions with religious beliefs and morals in mind, then we can be more political persuasive. We can do this with suggestion and without directly invoking religion. We have already started with the word, "greed". Indeed the Bible is one of the first advocates that says we must have a healthy thriving economy where everyone benefits:

James 5:1-6 New International Version
Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Democrats have been saying this, in phrases like "growing the whole pie" and "we all do better when we all do better".

Democrats should be proud of our moral beliefs, whether based on a particular religion or not. While I used the example of Jesus, obviously moral beliefs can come from many diverse sources. Indeed many people walk in moral paths without any religion. My point is that moral discussions are at the heart of politics. We have to go there. As Democrats, we are on the high moral ground and we should go there.

Update: An example of religion being used effectively in the health care discussion!

Update2:A cool listing of what different faith traditions say about health care!

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I like the post, (0.00 / 0)
but I'm always leery of trying to claim 'high moral ground' without caveats.

Unfortunately, conservatives can respond to James 5:1-6 with Matt. 25:28-9 (King James version, I always get a kick out of how that one, though not the most accurate translation, was deliberately written to be read aloud, as the de facto 'Voice of God): "Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents...For every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance:  but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."


I have already written (0.00 / 0)
on the story of investment of coins in a story on mnblue.

That was a good post on mnblue, as well, (0.00 / 0)
but adherents of the (to my mind) extremely convenient, self-serving 'prosperity gospel' don't strike me as being all that into nuance.  But I agree that trying to reach them is worth a shot, even many shots.  There is a tendency, that I've been known to share, to write certain groups off.

I should warn you now that if you keep replying I likely will, too.  The psychology of dogmatism (why do people believe things for which there is little, if any, apparent rational foundation?), including religion, is a subject I regard with intense fascination.


[ Parent ]
Me,too (0.00 / 0)
A nun once told me that is a life long profession to ponder about God, which made me feel better about having so many questions. I was terror in religious lessons.  

[ Parent ]
The deity question (0.00 / 0)
If Jesus is only good because he is all powerful then every person who ever suffers a tragedy must wonder what good is it to worship a powerful being who does not help you when needed? So all of the great miracle stories of the bible must be doubly biting when a religious person read that and thinks that yet in my need there was nothing. Then of course, then one could argue a God that metes out help on some "deserving" basis of which the suffering did not qualify. I don't like any of the thinking that the "all-powerful" path leads.  

'We can't know the mind of God' (0.00 / 0)
is, in my experience, the answer one eventually gets when starting to back a believer into a corner on 'the problem of evil.'  Even if that person has, mere seconds previously, been pontificating as if he knows the mind of God very, very well.

[ Parent ]
No, Jesus can't be just a guy. (0.00 / 0)
I've listened to this evangelical thing for about ten years now, because I'm writing about Bachmann and it's the national conservative evangelicals that sent her in and our keeping her in.

So, though I'm not an evangelical Christian, I'm quite sure I can tell you how they would answer your comments. If I'm wrong, I hope some evangelical will correct me--but this is basically how they view it.

1) Jesus is God. He can't be just a man, because--strictly as a matter of fact, he was not just a man. He fully God and fully human when he was here on Earth. That's the most basic tenet of conservative evangelical theology. Accepting the possibility that Jesus was just a man, would not only mean abandoning their dearly held faith--it would be heresy.

2) These people do not believe that Jesus is God "because that is their belief." They believe that it is demonstrably true that Jesus is God (a person of the Trinity.) Re-read that sentence. It is demonstrably true that Jesus is God for many reasons, most of them having to do with his having fulfilled the Biblical prophecies relating to the Messiah (which were written hundreds of years before the historical Jesus was born.) And the fact that he rose from the dead is another proof, and the fact that people saw him walking around and talking to people after his death, and the fact that he ascended into Heaven.

To evangelicals, these are not beliefs. They are historical facts. (I know; the references to a Messiah in the Old Testament are to a human being, not God, but in this theology we are talking about the two are conflated in prophecy. Don't bug me about this, please, it's what Christians (such as Catholics and evangelicals) believe.)

3) The evangelicals believe that the Bible is the truth, not a truth. The Bible, in particular the New Testament, states that Jesus is Lord. Thus, to the extent that you and I disagree with that statement--we are flat out wrong, because the Bible can't be. The evangelicals believe that the true text of the Bible, properly understood, is inerrant on matters of history, science and faith. Where there seems to be an error or contradiction in the text, a small army of Christian defenders are writing libraries of books to convince the faithful and the unpersuaded that there is no error or contradiction.

Once you understand the above, you can see how hard it is to convince an evangelical Christian to "tolerate" other beliefs--in the sense of treating other beliefs with the same respect that they demand for their own beliefs. In their hearts and minds, they know that what they believe is true and that what you believe is wrong (to the extent that it disagrees with their belief.) And they believe that it is possible to prove to you that what they believe is right and that what you believe is wrong--if only you would open your mind to the truth.

And evangelical Christians do tolerate "erroneous theologies" in the sense that they don't kill or imprison people who disagree with them. But they also fear other worldviews, because they are certain that the price for not believing the correct thing is hell--and they are as certain of that as they are of anything above. And they don't want their kids and loved ones misled into hell by people like you and me--thus the fear.

Why does this belief system appeal to the right more than the left? It satisfies a demand for certainty, I guess. The right is not good at acknowledging nuances in thinking. The center and left have room for skeptics, the number of skeptics on the right is comparatively minimal.

And the right is convinced that Americans who are not on the right are a potential danger to them and America--mirroring the evangelical belief that people who believe "the wrong thing" can lead you to hell.

So we have this political marriage between the evangelicals and the conservatives and, to a large extent, the GOP. On evangelical radio, you will hear political candidates and right wing issue positions articulated as if they are "the Christian view."

Of course, evangelicals are not the only Christians, and there division about politics even within the evangelical movement. But to this day, the major players in evangelical culture stand for the political right. And you are not going to win their minds by arguing that there may be more than one truth. Accepting that would be heresy and apostasy, for nearly forty million Americans.


My efforts to figure out a way (0.00 / 0)
to 'reach' really hard-line, true believers of any kind, from Christians to Communists, have, in fact, met with abject, miserable failure, thus far.  I keep trying just because I'm naturally of a dogged temperament, I guess.

It's fairly easy to get them worked up, especially if one inadvertently comes across as condescending.  But trying to exploit any breach created by emotionalism (if, indeed, there is one) has not been fruitful.  Rather, psychological defenses tend to solidify.

To me, it's telling that, in polls that have shown overall adherence to 'traditional' religion in decline in the U.S. (following the trend in other 'developed' nations), one reason the young give for eschewing the faiths of their fathers, and mothers, is that they don't like the spectacle, or the results, of evangelical involvement in politics.  But this has had no effect on the political shenanigans of evangelical leaders.  As you point out, they 'know' what they believe is absolutely true, hell awaits, &c., &c.


[ Parent ]
The analogy to Communists is (0.00 / 0)
pretty good. When you are talking to "true believer" evangelical, it's like talking to a devout Communist--this person believes that they have discovered a historical truth, based on incontrovertible evidence. To them, suggesting that something else might true and deserving of respect "as a possible truth" is not just undesirable, it's threatening.

They are starting from a different perspective than you and I. We might start from the perspective of inquiry, where we want to find out what the truth is, and hear the different views and arguments and make our own decision.

Evangelicals don't begin the discussion like that. They have been given the truth, it remains the truth no matter how persuasive or sophisticated the arguments against it. Their truth is also demonstrable, in their minds--if you talk to conservative evangelical spokesman, that person will assure you that history, science and the fact-finding process bear out his view--and refute any competing view.

I don't have a problem with people having such a belief system; it is an American's right to believe what he will. The problem I have is when they bring the supernatural and sectarian into the world we all have to live in, and try to use the government to make their beliefs into laws that affect the rights of individuals who don't believe what they believe. There are reasons that there's never been an established religion in the United States--the founders knew that Europe had been ripped apart by official churches and sectarian strife and didn't want that here; they believed that religious belief was a personal matter and not a matter of law. And I'm sure they would be appalled by the way conservative evangelicals have married their religion to commercial enterprise and the struggle for secular political power.


[ Parent ]
I've pondered my own experience, at length, (0.00 / 0)
and I'm pretty sure that, consciously, the main reason I left both the conservatism and Catholicism of my childhood is that I began to notice, while in high school, disparities between what was professed at church, and what was practiced in the 'real world.'  But I wasn't raised in a hard-core, 'true-believer' environment, with a lot of religious fear and shaming.  I also suspect that I've never had the personality to be a real fanatic about anything, unless I were to encounter some kind of extreme circumstances.

[ Parent ]
Whenever I get a chance to interact with people (0.00 / 0)
who, like me, were raised in even mildly religious/conservative surroundings, and no longer are, I always try to find if they can specify one or more particular items that changed their views, in the hope that that info. can somehow be applied on a wider basis.  But I'm always dealing with group A of the following:

A.  Those who, like me, weren't raised in hard-core surroundings, maybe started questioning some things even during adolescence, then went off to college, took a philosophy course or two, and so on...

B. For example, a real wild-eyed religious reactionary, a lifelong member of The Church of the Mighty Smiting Fist of Our Vengeful Lord in Swamphole, Alabama, who grew up in a time and place where the Knights of the KKK knew how to deal with godless atheists, but now has lived to see the day when there are places in the U.S. where they let *^%$#@$^*& queers get married!

I would tend to agree with what I take to be Bill's position that Group B can't be reached, or at least that efforts to do so are far beyond the point of what economists call 'diminishing returns.'

But I think there may also be a Group C, that Grace has touched on in reference to the teabaggers:  ostensibly conservative, but really motivated by anxiety and resentment toward a political system that they see as doing absolutely nothing for them.  Reaching them, in significant numbers, could be a really righteous thing.


need to believe (0.00 / 0)
I may have an insight to offer. I've been planning to write a diary about it when I had time, but here's the gist: sometimes people have a need to believe something. Deep down in their emotional cores, something must be true and all debunking evidence denied, or it must be false and all supporting evidence denied. I've been thinking more about conspiracy theories, but it applies to religion too. For me, this explains who people can be mostly decent, rational functional people, yet have one thing where utterly no amount of evidence can sink in. Though obviously, as with people who get consumed with religion, sometimes it does prevent people from being basically rational and functional in other parts of their lives.

I wanted to save it for the upcoming diary, but this just fits in so perfectly.


[ Parent ]
I hope you're planning on writing the diary, still; (0.00 / 0)
I consider it such a key issue because it goes to the question of changing peoples' minds, in large numbers, to the point where they might be, for example, no longer willing to fight wars when encouraged to do so by malignant, narcissistic, not to mention generally cowardly and worthless, 'leaders.'

[ Parent ]
If anything, God is a paradox, an enigma, a mystery (0.00 / 0)
"Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God himself."  Miguel de Unamuno

Similarly Harvard theologian and Riverside preacher William Sloan Coffin once said: "The fundamental sin is arrogance because it invites you to play God."  

The detailed beliefs or dogma of any religion provide the certainty that people often seek as a way of understanding and controlling their very uncertain lives and situations.  Detailed dogmas and theologies also provide the basis of superiority over other groups, becoming the source of friction and wars between religious groups.  The paradox lies in the fact that it's the human psych's need for certainty, knowing (instead of seeking) truth that in fact cannot ever be actually known, which leads fundamentalist doctrinarians in every religion to appropriate or use God, to play God, so that God becomes a mere tool to seek (short term-earthly) control over others.  

Ghandi said truth is the highest God.  It's not finite or totally knowable by human minds because as Einstein noted, we are prisoners of the optical illusion of our own consciousness.  And it's certainly not a question of memorizing theological details but an infinite, unending, spiritual search.  Yet there IS enormous consensus developed amongst all faith traditions, science and basic ethical principles as to the contours of the universe and our human existence in this universe.

In any event, I totally applaud Ms. Kelly's efforts to reach out and reach other minds in this way.  I just tried to use some basic theology myself in an article entitled: "Torture is not only illegal and ineffective, it's also a sin" (just recently published on page 13 of the summer edition of the "War Crimes Times": http://veteransforpeace.org/fi... (which I'll probably repost here shortly if I can figure out how to put the images in, including the great "Republican Jesus" cartoon).            


If you're talking to evangelicals (0.00 / 0)
Ms. Rowley, the arguments you're making here are not going to convince them. That's what I was trying to get across in the comments above. The conservative evangelicals are not looking for "common ground" or what Einstein and Gandhi thought. The lowliest Baptist preacher at a tent revival preaching the Bible, has an opinion superior to any truth articulated by Gandhi or Einstein--in the eyes of the constituency we are discussing.

That is such a hard fact for people outside this particular faith to accept. You are "of it," or "not"--you are going to hell, or not. That is the hard "truth" that they preach every day, to the converted and unconverted alike--they are not interested in forming some "common area of agreement about God and what we can't know, etc." They believe they have been given a book that tells them all they really need to know about the nature of God and the world--and if you or I disagree with their understanding of what that book says, we are either wrong or deceitful.

Such a hard fact for people outside this faith to accept about this faith; such an insistence on over-valuing our views in their minds, on over-valuing the power of reason and evidence over their minds.

And so hard for people outside this faith to accept the power and influence that this kind of extreme and apocalyptic thinking now has over the GOP and the conservative movement in general...  


[ Parent ]
 

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