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Third District Peace Forum: Winners and Losers?

by: Joe Bodell

Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:30:00 AM CST


What do you get when you mix three legitimate candidates, three not-so-legitimate candidates, and a room full of progressives who want drastic action on Iraq and U.S. foreign policy?

A candidate forum that went from thoughtful to zany as quickly as you could say "Impeach George W. Bush."

Monday night's candidate forum presented a chance for the three leading DFL contenders in Minnesota's Third District race to demonstrate their knowledge and ideas on Iraq, Iran, and general U.S. foreign policy.  Moderator Eric Black did yeoman's work managing time and the questions from the audience during the last portion of the session, and the DFL candidates -- state Sen. Terri Bonoff, Edina Mayor Jim Hovland, and attorney/Iraq vet Ashwin Madia were able to formulate strong answers to most of the questions on the agenda, having been armed with an outline before the event.

So who won?  

Joe Bodell :: Third District Peace Forum: Winners and Losers?
If it were a standard debate, there was only one choice:  Madia by several lengths.  In an event sponsored by veterans' and peace organizations, Madia started with a statement about his background as a Marine, establishing his bona fides on Iraq (having served there) and didn't stumble.  He garnered the best applause of the night on a question concerning the future of the U.S. role as superpower, saying "our nation is strongest when leading not by size or strength, but by who we are.  I want to go back to the time when we led on ideals."  He went on to outline specific steps -- stop the practice of extraordinary rendition, stop parsing words about what torture means, go back to international law, and respect Geneva conventions -- each of which produced a spate of applause from the audience.  This question was toward the end of the event, and should stick in attendees' memories.

By contrast, Bonoff and Hovland experienced significant stumbles.  Although having the advantage of going third on a question about Iran, and having heard the positive responses Madia and Hovland garnered with their opinions that Iran did not pose an immediate threat, Bonoff went full-bore into an explanation of why Iran is a threat because "they want to wipe Israel off the map."  She explained, upon some light laughter and clucking from the audience , "Do I think force is the right way to deal with that threat?  Absolutely not.  The administration should be embarrassed by what they've been saying about Iran."  She continued with a wonky answer, advocating a multilateral diplomatic solution to the Iran issue, as the other two candidates did.

Hovland generally did a good job demonstrating his "one of you" appeal to the audience, mostly liberal Democrats, who are still getting to know the Mayor who only recently switched his party affiliation.  On the Iran question, Hovland produced a great quip:  "Iran cries out for a diplomatic solution.  There's no reason to be rattling sabers like President Bush did with Iraq....when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."  Hovland also had the misfortune of being the first respondent to the most divisive question of the night, one issued from an audience member:  "Has President Bush committed impeachable offenses?"

It was at this point that the event went temporarily from thoughtful and congenial to, dare I say, angry and slightly disrespectful.  Although I can understand the drastic feeling of hopelessness for our country, our Constitution, and our government among those who want President Bush gone as soon as possible, to put the question to these candidates as more than a simple hypothetical is worse than useless.  As Hovland quipped, "[Bush] will be going out the back door as one of us is coming in the front."  But Hovland, answering first, garnered audible moans and several louder protests when he expressed uncertainty that President Bush had committed such offenses.  At what point do we, as thinking, rational people, realize that Bush will be gone in a year, and then we can get back to the business of fixing our country and its reputation, and stop putting loaded hypotheticals to candidates for Congress?  The Democratic House leadership doesn't want 2008 to be a repeat of 1998, when Newt Gingrich's Republican caucus thought they would ride impeachment proceedings to a crushing national victory and instead lost five seats.  For better or worse, we need to accept this, folks.

Hovland, answering first, garnered audible moans and several louder protests when he expressed uncertainty that President Bush had committed such offenses.  Madia and Bonoff had the advantage of following Hovland on this question. Bonoff said "there are so many things we could go after President Bush for and say it's an impeachable offense. Who cares about Monica Lewinsky?  Has [Bush] done things that make him impeachable? I think the answer is yes. Do I want to right now pursue impeachment proceedings? No." This answer garnered another series of sighs from the audience. Madia pivoted well from the question of impeaching Bush, saying that while he thought Bush had committed impeachable offenses, more important issues include balancing the federal budget and getting the U.S. out of Iraq.

The event format reserved time for three minor candidates to speak as well.  Kevin Smith, who briefly opposed Wendy Wilde for the Third district DFL endorsement in 2006, spoke briefly on peace issues, garnering polite applause.  Mary O'Connor, a Libertarian city councilwoman from Brooklyn Center, spoke (but not very well) and advocated letting Israel be removed from the map, returning to the pre-1947 standard.  The crowd's response was tepid at best.  Amy Alexander, who says she is seeking the Green Party nomination in the race, was given time before the microphone, but her time could best be described as a rant, and did not appear to have the effect that past third-party bids have had upon activists discouraged by the two-party system.

Bottom line:  Terri Bonoff and Jim Hovland had strong moments, but each stumbled a bit.  Madia was the strongest performer in this forum, and not by a little, and his rhetoric wasn't focused solely on appealing to the liberal-leaning audience.  If he can get a few high-profile endorsements, raise a solid chunk of change in the fourth quarter, and work hard on the ground leading up to caucuses and the CD3 convention, he could be a contender.  

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Why Impeachment (0.00 / 0)
In response to: "At what point do we, as thinking, rational people, realize that Bush will be gone in a year, and then we can get back to the business of fixing our country and its reputation, and stop putting loaded hypotheticals to candidates for Congress?" The point is protecting law and the  constitution. When we did not impeach Nixon, we set the stage for this president to disregard the law and the constitution. If there is never consequences to actions, then we can expect that another president will even more blatantly break the law and the constitution. We need to impeach to protect the law, the constitution and the checks and balances of the constitution.

Otherwise, it is the same as saying well that thief, that murderer has moved out of the state, why bother to keep trying to prosecute?  


There is a difference (4.00 / 1)
Grace, I meant to reply to this earlier, but was unable to do so.

There's a difference that makes your analogy not work:  for murder, there's rarely a statute of limitations.  Remember that in the 1990s, it was pretty clear that Gingrich and his cronies were gunning for an impeachment as soon as Clinton stole their platform -- namely, NAFTA and welfare reform -- out from under them.  It took them longer than a single election cycle to make it happen.

I'm not saying that Bush hasn't committed impeachable offenses.  I personally believe he has, and history will judge him thusly.  But RIGHT NOW starting impeachment proceedings will provide yet another drag on our government that the thin Democratic majorities in Congress can't handle -- to say nothing of not accomplishing their goals, since a 2/3 conviction vote in the Senate is impossible, considering that a simple majority is also generally impossible on most contentious votes.  Yes, it's the right thing to do.  But if we wanted to make it happen, the time would have been late January 2007.  That ship has sailed, and for people to get this upset about it now is crying over spilled milk.  Want to be able to impeach Presidents who abrogate the Constitution?  Elect more strong Democrats.


[ Parent ]
More to Joe's point... (4.00 / 1)
Jim made an interesting comment in the car this afternoon.  He said that he's been an attorney his whole adult life and that so much negative energy and resources are wasted in litigation. He said that we're better off moving forward rather than going backwards.

Ya know, so much has been broken and destroyed over the last seven years.  We're 13 months out from a new presidential administration.  We need to start focusing on rebuilding our country and reinvesting in our people and communities.

We have an opportunity next year to elect new leaders with new experiences and new perspectives.  Let's focus on that.  


[ Parent ]
"Has President Bush committed impeachable offenses?" (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, I was the one who asked it. However I disagree that "to put the question to these candidates as more than a simple hypothetical is worse than useless."

Rhetorical perhaps, but certainly not hypothetical. All I wanted was a "yes". And I got that from two candidates, with Hovland hedging a bit too much. Madia even added to my points by reminding us all that the warrantless wiretapping is also illegal! It's my estimation that any Democratic candidate should at least be in touch with the reality that Bush is guilty of certain crimes. With Kucinich sponsoring bills to impeach, it's a valid point of discussion, IMO.

I do agree with you that Madia stood out from the rest, hands down.  


Good points, Jeff (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you that Democratic candidates should be in touch with the facts and allegations pointing to President Bush having eviscerated many of the Constitutional rights we hold dear.  And perhaps you're right that it's better kept as a rhetorical question -- my beef was largely with the rather violent reaction from the audience to the candidates' responses.  Yes, it's worth asking and answering the question for rhetoric's sake, but I can't empathize with the people who tried to take the candidates to task for something they will have no influence over whatsoever.

Great to have you here on MNCR, too :)


[ Parent ]
will this be a congress person who... (0.00 / 0)
Someone else posted that we need to know if this will be a congress person "who just goes along with things too often" or something to that effect.  A fair question of course, but first in my mind in this swing district is "will this be a congress person at all?"

Giving people the answers they want at an event like this, especially if you have no electoral or voting history, is an impressive thing, but I'm not sure it says much about how you win this district.  I didn't see it, but remain unconvinced of Mr. Madia's fit for the district or qualifications.  I also, like many of the folks in that room I suspect, am not from the 3rd, so take my words with a grain.


Is Iran a threat? (0.00 / 0)
Senator Bonoff last night said she disagreed with the other two candidates regarding they're views on Iran; she stated that a country whose leader repeatedly, publicly advocates for destruction of the only democracy in the mid-east is, indeed, a threat.  She did not advocate invasion -- simply acknowledged their leader's position.  In contrast, Madia's answer was flip, comparing the anti-Israel statement to Bush's standing in front of a "mission accomplished" sign. And the laughter came from one woman, who later suggested giving all of Israel to the Palestineans.  Bonoff gets the big picture and is in line with the voters of he 3rd district.  

Israel is to Iran what abortion is to American Social Conservatives (0.00 / 0)
that is, it's a boogeyman best left in place for the sake of rallying votes on election day.  Ahmadinejad has neither the power nor the political capital to take Israel out.  Believe you me, I get a LOT of vehemently pro-Israel opinion in my eye -- my Rabbi is a staunch supporter of the state of Israel, as are the vast majority of the members of my (Third District-based) congregation.  I understand the fear of Iran.  But we here at home have little understanding for just how well-armed Israel is as a military power.  We will continue to arm them, and they will continue to pose a significant second-strike capability against any regional military power who feels they can profit by a first strike.

To make a long story short, Iran is not as big a threat to vital U.S. interests as some on both sides of the aisle have made it out to be.  The recently released NIE proves that.  As for being in line with the district -- I haven't seen any polling on the issue.  If you have, that would be awesome, and I'd love to see it in a diary here on MNCR.  It's possible Bonoff is in line with the district.  It's also possible, depending on how you massage the questions and the numbers, that Madia is too -- polls are a snapshot in time full of numbers to be manipulated.  The question is, who can bring their vision of the issue to the voters that matter at any given stage of the campaign and prove that they're the one to handle it?


[ Parent ]
Um... (0.00 / 0)
in my *ear*, not my eye.  That would hurt my delicate corneas.

[ Parent ]
Yes, Iran is a threat (0.00 / 0)
I agree with Voter that Iran is a threat, because they said they wanted to "wipe Israel off the map". I was there and Terri was great - she understands the issues! Also, I don't know what exactly the NIE report is, but it is enough that the President still thinks of Iran as a threat, too, which shows something.

[ Parent ]
Uh...... (0.00 / 0)
You're welcome to think that Iran is a threat to Israel -- I respectfully disagree.  However, I'm not sure saying "President Bush thinks Iran is a threat, so that's something" is the greatest way to convince America of that mindset.

[ Parent ]
Wow (0.00 / 0)
The NIE report is the national intelligence estimate report, which is a summary of the findings of all of our intelligence agencies.  That report concludes that Iran is not much of a threat.  

Given the president's history of lying about this very subject, the fact that he sees Iran as a threat is probably further proof that it isn't.  


[ Parent ]
I've read in many places (0.00 / 0)
that Iran's president didn't say "wipe Israel off the map." The actual translation is more along the lines of "Israel will fade from the pages of history."  

[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
The correct translation is "this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time," which I am sure makes the Iraelis feel much better about the situation.  Ironically, the mistranslation into English originated with Iranian governement, which later clarified the statement.  

[ Parent ]
Iran as Bully; reading the NIE is necessary homework for Congress members (0.00 / 0)
I remember that Madia's comment on this inferred that Iran was a bully and not a serious threat.  

I also remember that he said, if/when elected to Congress, he would always read the National Intelligence Estimate before casting a vote and would do his homemowrk to be informed of the situation.

I believe his work as a Marine Corps lawyer has him well trained to do the homework he promised so that a vote is based on the facts available.


[ Parent ]
who was really better? (0.00 / 0)
Does it show that someone is a better candidate if he/she A) Can study carefully and give the exact answers the audience wants? or B) if he/she says what he/she believes even when he/she knows it is not the answer the crowd wants?

In this district, I'm inclined towards B mainly because Ramstad has held this seat and won love and respect for taking middle positions that angered republicans and angered democrats.

It sounds like Hovland and Bonoff both continue to show themselves to be moderates and we will not win this district without a moderate.  Maybe Madia is too.

As for Iran, it is not a black and white question.  Is Iran a threat?  It probably is.  Is it a huge threat that requires military action by the US?  Almost certainly not.


Joe's comments about the candidate forum (0.00 / 0)
Hi Joe, I was at the candidates' forum, too.  Did you see me?  I saw you.

You're certainly right that young Ashwin is the most practiced and polished presenter of the three candidates.

But you wrote "If it were a standard debate...", then never offered your conclusion of whether it was or was not.  What did you mean by that?

One of your comments implied to me that you think Mr. Madia is "in line" with the District, and that there must be some polls which address this question.  Joe, there are polls which demonstrate what the 3rd CD is after.  The most accurate and important of them is taken every 2nd year in November, and  the results have been remarkably consistent since 1959.  I remember 1959; do you, Joe?.  

The poll results show the 3rd CD likes calm, "moderate" representatives  with a friendly attitude toward business and a strong inclination to protect the pocketbooks of one of the 15 wealthiest congressional districts in the United States. Young Ashwin may get some of the DFL faithful a bit hot and bothered right now, but I'm not sure he's thinking about the general election quite yet.  Are you?

Well, those are the things I've been thinking about.

Thanks for writing.

Alice


Hi Alice (0.00 / 0)
You should have introduced yourself.

By "if it were a standard debate".....what did I mean?  I mean that standard debates are more easily scored, and the organizers intentionally made this a non-standard event.  

Election Day is not the best indicator of what voters in a particular district are looking for.  It is an indicator of how well they know the incumbent, yes, and it is an indicator of how well a campaign has executed its messaging and field plan.  The November election is a personality contest, informed by current events and political issues.

By your assertion that you remember 1959, I assume that's meant to mean that you're at least 50-52 years old at the very least.  Congratulations, you've seen a lot of things in your life; may you see many more.

I myself am a bit younger than that.

At this point, I think we've established that Ashwin Madia is a strong speaker, and Terri Bonoff has her appeals as well.  I'm looking forward to seeing all three candidates in more formats and before different audiences to gauge their performance all the way to the 3rd CD convention.


[ Parent ]

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